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Best of the Worst L85 or INSAS Rifle

When you sit back and think about the worst weapons ever issued to a military force, you have plenty of options. The Chauchat was pretty terrible. The M14 might be America’s worst military rifle. There are just too many. However, let’s narrow it down to the more modern assault rifle market, and things get a little easier. When I narrowed it down to just two weapons, I couldn’t figure out if the British L85 or the Indian INSAS took the cake as best of the worst. 

What’s somewhat funny is that the Brits and Indians were both wielding the FN FAL in the form of the L1A1 prior to adopting their respective god-awful weapons. The Brits adopted the L85 and SA80 family in 1985. The INSAS rifle was adopted a bit later, in 1998, officially. The adoption of the ISNAS was delayed because the Indians lacked enough 5.56 ammo to issue it. 

Breaking Down the INSAS and L85 

The L85 and INSAS were similar in their purpose. Both military forces wanted a domestically produced modern assault rifle. The age of the battle rifle was over, and the modern 5.56 rifle was and remained the current hotness. Both military forces wanted to get into the modern arms market and also wanted to domestically produce their new rifle. The INSAS and L85 are also parts of weapons’  families’ that include carbine and LMG variants. 

 

The Brits have had a thing for bullpups for basically ever. They really wanted one after World War 2, and it took until the 1980s to make their dreams come true. The L85 took a lot of inspiration from the AR-18 series rifle. It’s not exactly fair to say it’s a bullpup AR-18, but it’s close. (Side note, the Brits did experiment with a bullpup AR-18, and somehow it was worse than the L85. The L85 is a selective-fire assault rifle that chambers the 5.56 NATO cartridge and feeds from a box magazine. 

The INSAS came to be at a time when the Indian Army and police forces were using mostly FALs but also British .303 rifles and AK series rifles. The Indians wanted a modern weapon to be universal for their armed forces. They designed something that took inspiration from the AK, the FAL, and even the HK rifles. It used a standard layout, fed from a box magazine, and offered variants with wood or polymer furniture as well as folding and fixed stocks. 

What Makes Them So Bad? 

Ooh boy, where to start? Both weapons have major reliability issues. The L85 sucked in dusty and artic environments and ran into tons of malfunctions. The polymer furniture reportedly melted from bug repellant. The internals were not robust enough for a military rifle. In the Gulf War, the weapon broke often, and the L85 proved more reliable in full auto than semi, and the L85A1 proved more reliable in semi than auto. The gas mechanism would pop open randomly. 

The INSAS problems began in 1999 in its first trial by combat. The rifle was being used for a conflict in the Himalayas, and the temperatures shut the rifle down. It had huge reliability issues. Sometimes, regardless of where the rifle’s selector was set, it would just fire in full auto mode. The gas regulator often broke, rendering the rifle useless. 

The L85’s first batch of magazines was so bad you could allegedly deform them by grasping them tightly. The INSAS magazines were polymer and reportedly cracked often. Both guns featured furniture that was poorly made and wobbly, often easily broken. 

Both weapons reportedly overheated quickly. The L85, especially the squad auto version, would overheat in 120 to 150 rounds. The INSAS rifles were adopted by the Nepalese forces and seized up in a firefight against Maoist terrorists. The Nepalese were overrun, and this led to 43 deaths. While we don’t have specific examples, a LANDSET report by the Ministry of Defence stated that platoon commanders expected casualties caused by the weapon in CQB. 

Which is Worse? 

The Brits have attempted to fix the L85, and HK, then owned by British investors, upgraded the weapon. This became the L85A2. This seemed to largely fix the predecessor’s mistakes. The A2 variants are reportedly much better and much more reliable. The squad support version was pulled and replaced by the belt-fed FN Minimi. It’s worth noting that British special ops tend to prefer AR variants over the L85. 

The Indians attempted to fix the INSAS problems but ultimately chose to do away with it. After several high-profile problems, it was found to be too much of a problem to fix. The Indian Army is instead resigning the weapon and purchasing the AK 203 rifles and some SIG 716i rifles alongside the Israeli Negev machine guns. 

It would seem the INSAS was worse as it couldn’t even be fixed. However, at least the Indians corrected the problem fairly quickly rather than continue to issue a craptastic rifle. With that in mind, I’m giving the INSAS the best of the worst win. 

.223 Deadly, Unlike 00 Buck?

Ryan Busse claiming .223 dangerous
Photo Credit: Darell Ehrlick

Nobody will dispute that .223 or 5.56 is a dangerous thing to be shot with. 5.56 is a common round in global militaries, so it’s not as though it’s underpowered or anything. What is amusing though is the torturous way the anti-gun lobby will devote hours to discussing the lethality of this particular assault rifle round, while simultaneously ignoring reality or contradicting themselves –sometimes both!–.

That’s not to say that there isn’t a lot of hyperbole around the capabilities of the standard AR-15 chambering. The “.223 deadly!” side would have you believe that the 55 grain (3.5 grams) projectile .223 throws would rip a human being in half, despite the fact that many states limit the cartridge to varmint-sized animals for hunting purposes –because the round isn’t powerful enough to be considered humane for deer or larger.–

Perhaps the best example of this collision of ideology and reality is the Highland Park, IL assault weapons ban that is currently struggling through a lawsuit to stop it. Of the innumerable post-Bruen decision cases, this one has produced an amusing dichotomy: The “.223 deadly, and no good for self-defense!” argument is being stood up alongside the concept that the unbanned .300WinMag rifles, and 12ga shotguns are perfectly fine to shoot people with. This despite both of those rounds being significantly more powerful, and much more capable of removing entire portions of a human being than the comparatively underpowered .223 or 5.56.

Naturally, at the center of this massive conflation in service of unconstitutional legislation is Ryan Busse –former Kimber executive turned gun control lobby shill– who never misses a chance to get paid to say absurd things about guns in service of banning them. He is the oxford cloth, wingtip version of the former service member who claims to “support the 2A, but…” Wherever there is a Bruen challenge and the Shill Signal has lit up the sky, he rarely fails to answer the call, and the paycheck that comes with it.

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The Mare’s Leg and The King of Cool

Our modern love of superheroes isn’t much different than the cowboys of the 1950s and 60s. They are everywhere you look. In the 1950s and 60s, the large and small screens were dominated by westerns, and the genre has remained somewhat popular over the years. In the late 1950s, everyone seemed to have a western show, and producers were looking for a way to distinguish one from the other. Have Gun Will Travel had a custom Colt Calvary, The Riflemen had a custom Winchester rifle, and Wyatt Earp carried a massive Buntline special. Josh Randall carried a Mare’s Leg.

The Mare’s Leg was a custom short rifle made from a Winchester Model 1892. The original models chambered the .44-40 round, although McQueen carried .45-70 rounds in his cartridge belt. The barrels were shortened to 9 inches, and the stock was nearly removed. This created the first Mare’s Leg.

To this day, you can buy your own Mare’s Leg in various calibers from various companies. The term has become a catch-all for these shortened lever guns.

The Mare’s Leg – Dead Or Alive

McQueen played Josh Randall, a bounty hunter who traveled the west seeking to collect the hides of criminals. Along the way, he often proved wanted men innocent, helped find missing people, and once even saved Santa Claus. The show was your typical heroic western. A stranger rides into town runs into a problem and solves it.

He rode a feisty horse named Ringo, and for many of my youthful years, I watched Randall across the west. My dad is a huge western fan, and a lot of my time in front of the TV involved TV land and old westerns. That likely influenced my taste in firearms. The episodes often featured his Mare’s Leg, holstered to his thigh.

His was cool as a cucumber. Although he rarely aimed, he often landed his shots where he needed to. In one of the first episodes, if not the first, he uses the Mare’s Leg as a baton to beat a man into submission before being sucker-punched himself. It was a fun show, and I have fond memories of it and the Mare’s Leg.

In Real Life

As mentioned, the Mare’s Leg was a shortened Winchester 1892 in .44-40. However, that wasn’t all. McQueen had his own input on the gun. He requested a duck-billed hammer and a larger lever loop. This required a redesign of the holster but likely made the weapon faster to cock. The weapon didn’t have sights, but McQueen didn’t need sights.

Three different guns were made for the show. Two of the three had octagonal barrels, and you can notice the change as you watch the show. Sometimes it changes from scene to scene.

The Mare’s Leg was built by Kenny Von Dutch Hwoard, an artist and gunsmith. If the name sounds familiar, it’s the same Von Dutch that inspired the clothing line and the famed trucker hats of the early 2000s. No one consulted with the ATF on this conversion, and the program was fined 1,100 dollars. In 2023 that’s a little over 11,000 dollars.

Beyond Dead or Alive

The Mare’s Leg has been an underrated part of pop culture guns. The gun has shown up in numerous films, tv shows, and even video games in the years following its creation. Most companies who make lever guns will typically make at least one Mare’s Leg. It’s a neat gun and one that has a special place in pop culture. Plus, all my homies annoy the ATF.

Pistol Brace Boost After Ruling

Pistol brace on an AR-15
Photo Credit: Reason.com

https://thereload.com/federal-judge-expands-block-on-biden-ghost-gun-ban/

Defense Distributed joins a short list of companies exempted from the Biden administration’s ATF rule banning the sale or transfer of homemade gun parts. Despite a move to block the rule on 2A grounds having previously been denied, Judge O’Connor agreed that the ATF overstepped its authority under the Administrative Procedure Act (APA). With the upcoming fight over the new pistol brace ban, this and another defeat over the Trump administration’s bumpstock ban —also on APA grounds– on the same grounds paints a positive picture.

It’s true that these victories don’t directly impact the pistol brace ban, or the court cases moving forward against it. What they do, however, is establish precedent and bolster the case against all recent ATF rulings as damaging to both commercial and public interests. This is important as each favorable decision wrung out of State and Federal courts strengthens each case if/when they make it to SCOTUS.

With the now two favorable rulings both citing the APA, and the pistol brace lawsuit doing the same we are hopeful that the brace ban will face a similar conclusion in the near future. Anything is possible and there have been some less positive cases, but winning is winning, and it sets the stage for more.

Introduction to Pistol Caliber Carbine for the New Gun Owner

Massad Ayoob Group MAG-40 Course Review: Part 2 The Classroom

*Secondary Disclaimer* There’s a lot of proprietary information covered in this class that’s not to be shared with the general public. That’s why one of the requirements of attendance is either a criminal background check or current Carry License. Due to that, there may be some gaps or ambiguity in the overall review. Trust me when I say that the 2 days of classroom are reason enough to attend the course. The range portion is there so that, should he need to, Mas can testify to your proficiency with a firearm, not just that you had the academic knowledge about use of force.

Day 3: The introduction covered the information that would be discussed, how we should handle that information, and certain steps we should take to document our knowledge moving forward. We covered some of the basics, like what is entailed in Jury Selection, some basic legal concepts like what circumstances justify use of deadly force, different levels of homicide (murder, manslaughter, justifiable, etc), as well as a more in-depth look at Cooper’s color code. We also discussed different standards of proof, and the different legal applications of each. We went over the fact that a claim of self defense constituted an “affirmative defense”, and what that entails.

Day 4: The day did start out with some discussion on equipment. There are prudent things that a defensive gun carrier should consider before purchasing/augmenting their firearm. We reviewed things like trigger mods, safeties, etc. We also reviewed studies in human reaction time, including the Tueller drill. There was some review of common “Defensive Myths”. You know, the dumb shit you hear tossed around at gun stores, gun shows, and on different internet forums. Throughout the course, there were a lot of helpful tips on how to prep your life for certain events.

One of the biggest segments was focused in the different physical/emotional reactions after the shooting. We talked about the psychological and societal impacts. The idea behind this is to ensure the students are aware of what to expect. That way a) they are less scared by the unknown of what to expect and b) are able to critically think and develop their support plans ahead of time. There was some discussion of attorney selection, as well as the potential value of being a member to a program like US Law Shield/ Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network/ etc.

We also discussed the how and why of ammunition selection. Not so much from the ballistic performance, but also how it can potentially play into your defense. They eschewed the mixing of ammunition. The discussion segued into combative anatomy, and the 3 major target areas, and which is appropriate under what circumstances. There was also a discussion on rendering aide, and under what circumstances it would be (im)prudent. As previously mentioned, there was a lot of proprietary information, that was to be expressly contained within the scope of the class, and only shared with those directly vetted by the alumni. What I can comfortably say is that this section was built around how to avoid getting shot by other good guys, how to communicate with all parties involved, and how to keep from turning a righteous shooting into an inadvertent homicide charge. The irony is that the most valuable segment of the course is the one I have to write the least about. There were lots of legal cases provided throughout as case studies of the different principles covered.

Marlin’s Hammer Fired Pump

The Marlin is an interesting piece of history.

Repeating shotguns became an important part of the firearms scene beginning with the Winchester 1897. With its reliable trombone action and exposed hammer the ’97 is still in service with many shooters. While the open bolt rotary magazine Roper and various odd ball shotguns were developed the Winchester proved to be a reliable and useful shotgun. Marlin and Winchester butted heads over lever action rifles and are still worthy competitors. Marlin introduced a pump action shotgun similar to the Winchester 1897. While never as popular as the Winchester the Marlin was a robust and reliable shotgun. All Marlin shotguns were take down models. The original 1898 Marlin was followed by other models ending with the Model 24 to the best of my knowledge. The Marlin doesn’t command a lot of money yet it is a pretty cool piece with plenty of history behind it.

While there were some military models manufactured the majority of Marlin shotguns featured 26 to 32 inch barrels. While offered in 12 gauge there is a rare 16 gauge model. Depending on the exact model and its period manufacture the shotgun may feature a semi pistol grip or a straight grip. The shotgun was manufactured in several variants. Among these was the lighter model 19. Some featured a glare fighting matte finish on the receiver. I don’t like to comment on problems with which I have no personal experience but it seems that early Marlin shotguns suffered from something called ‘false battery’ and may have fired when not fully locked. The shotgun was further developed into one of the very few drop safe shotguns of the era. Even today few shotguns are drop safe if dropped from sufficient height. This is an advantage of the type. The shotgun bolt was locked on firing and merely operating the bolt and  dropping the hammer, does not unlock the bolt. The Marlin features an inertial block. The bolt is locked closed but unlocked by the jar of firing the shotgun. In order to unlock the bolt without firing a push button is located to the right side of the bolt.


The shotgun is smooth and reliable in a well maintained example. It is interesting that while the Marlin has good safety features the type has been banned from Cowboy Action Shooting due to safety concerns. This bears some explanation. Many early Marlin shotguns were chambered for 2.5 inch shells. Later models chambered 2.75 ( 2 ¾ inch) shells. The problem is that a 2.75 inch shell will jam into the chamber and fire. If the load is strong enough damage or even a burst shell is the result. While the Marlin 1898 shotguns are strong variants God help the person firing a high brass shell in a 2.5 inch chamber! Later shotguns are fine with the longer shell- and 2.5 inch shells are available. Just the same this requires more preparation than simply grabbing a Winchester 1897 clone and ripping off a few shells.

The other problem is probably the more serious. Remember the false lockup? While cured in later models the push type plunger is problematical if you are not very careful. As it turns out those speed chucking the Marlin in competition sometimes hit the button while handling the Marlin. As a result the Marlin might fire while out of battery and apparently has done so on occasion. So we have the unfortunate situation of a quality shotgun with excellent safety features being banned from competition. Just the same this is a reasonable thing to do. I don’t think I am taking my life in my hands firing the old Marlin or I would not fire it. Just the same be certain to check out the shotgun for haze cracks and be very cautious in firing the shotgun- and especially determine the proper chambering. Even those chambered in 2.75 inch were intended for early shells with a different style of roll crimp.


The example illustrated is a trade gun. This is a gun made by one manufacturer and labeled for a chain store. There were many Western Auto shotguns and J C Higgins manufactured by American makers and re-labeled. Today the same circumstance exist with millions of Turkish shotguns relabeled. As an example you pay quite a bit more for a Mossberg, Weatherby, or Winchester marked Turkish gun- may as well save a hundred bucks or so and purchase a Turkish gun at Cheaperthandirt.com! Just saying- makes sense to me. The trade name of the Marlin in this case is REVONOC by Hibbard Spencer & Bartlett. I am pretty certain the shotgun was manufactured about 1906. No way to be certain. Factory records were lost. Many records of older makers were lost during World War Two. They were donated in paper drives. Floods and fires took a toll. Just the same the Marlin types have little collector value. Most seem to have seen much use in the hunting field. The 12 gauge model shown shows even consistent wear rather than eccentric wear. Considering the age the shotgun has been well taken care of.  Have I fired it? Sure, after a careful safety inspection. I would be very hesitant to fire an earlier version without the bolt lock plunger. But then I am no expert or even intimately familiar with this type of shotgun. I would recommend locking the shotgun in a fixture for the first shot if you must fire this type of shotgun. I did so with an old T shirt wrapped around the bolt to detect gas leak. Works for me and I have fired the shotgun with standard birdshot. This shotgun has the special order straight stock we would call a skeet stock these days. This shotgun points and handles well. It was in the game field at some point as when I first purchased the shotgun it had a plug in the receiver limiting capacity to two shells per state law. I haven’t removed the plug, no point, I may take it bird hunting for the fun of it.

The Marlin hammer guns are an interesting bunch. I enjoy owning mine and occasionally handling the piece and wondering what hunts it was in on the past one hundred twenty years. They remain affordable and make a good conversation piece. But don’t put it on the front lines!